It's now do-or-die for the Broncos: Lockyer

[Jason Simmons]

I maintain it is our pack that needs help ... not our halves

I agree. When packs dominate, you rarely hear complaints about halves. Get the opposition backpeddaling and Hunt and Milford will carve them up. Trying to do it out of thin air, when we are getting dominated is why our 'plan' isn't working.

This season (as if we didn't already know) shows that you cannot run out a pack almost entirely consisting of backrowers and hope to succeed. They need some starting big boppers as much as any team ever has and we just don't have it in the squad.

It is something that has been needed for years. Even Griffin recognised it, he just bought the most useless one in the entire NRL...

 

[Super Freak]

So what was last year? Just a fluke?

We had the same forward pack.. In fact, we were missing McGuire for half of the season.

Last year showed you don't need the giants as much as everyone says you do, provided you have the right attitude which is exactly what we had. Our pack was one of the best in the comp. We took down the best in the comp.

Put a big forward in the side now and we're still going to be having the same problems.

 

[Allo]

I think there is a reason why Hunt and Milford can't learn from Locky.

It's because Locky's playing style doesn't suit Hunt and Milford.

Locky was all about control. That's not Hunt's and Milford's strong point.

Langer was more ad lib, but I don't think he is very good at teaching players. I think Walters was better at that and Hunt and Milford responded to him better.

It needs to be part of their game at least. Something that is not there in either player right now.

We certainly haven't controlled a game through kicking or field position and most of our games for the past two years have either been just basic outscoring the other team, brick-walling in on-line defence or last-minute brilliance. Games like the Cowboys v Dogs the other night or pretty much Storm v anyone we don't see from our guys. Obviously we don't have a JT, Smith or Cronk (yet) but I'd like to see a 'clinical' win occasionally

 

[Big Pete]

It's the old cliche. "If you're not going forward..."

In fairness, the Broncos recognised that last year. That's why they brought in the likes of Gavet, Ese'ese, Garbutt and Pangai Jr. None of them have set the world on fire (yet), and some won't ever do it for the Broncos, but it's something the club has been working on.

The issue is with the likes of Ofahengaue, Ese'ese, Pangai Jr, Fai etc. it takes time. I don't think there's a prop that went straight from the Holden Cup and dominated from the first season. I know a few who played Test footy, but they were picked as prospects and nothing more.

The point I'm getting at is the club will sign a forward or two to bolster the pack. I have little doubt about that. However, anyone expecting to sign a Jesse Bromwich, David Klemmer etc is only setting themselves up for disappointment. The Broncos don't need them in order to be successful.

If anything, they desperately need some backs. The way the game is played these days, if you don't have a back with a good carry in him, you're going to lose a few sets of six. Right now, the Broncos only have one player who has consistently made good metres. It isn't enough and it's having a big say in games.

 

[_wwong]

So what was last year? Just a fluke?

We had the same forward pack.. In fact, we were missing McGuire for half of the season.

Last year showed you don't need the giants as much as everyone says you do, provided you have the right attitude which is exactly what we had. Our pack was one of the best in the comp. We took down the best in the comp.

Put a big forward in the side now and we're still going to be having the same problems.

There was definitely more offloading last year especially from Blair. We scored length of field tries and even off a kick off against the bunnies. Plus we had hodges running from dummy half which usually had the opposition in 2 minds just from his reputation alone.

 

[RedHillGuy]

Hodges dummy half running, Vidot/Oates in great form taking first rucks and follow up runs from Kahu and Reed. Our backs were much more adept in 2015 in getting us out of trouble. Injuries and retirements have left that job a lot to the likes of Maranta, Eden, Roberts etc which isn't their strength.

 

[Jason Simmons]

So what was last year? Just a fluke?

We had the same forward pack.. In fact, we were missing McGuire for half of the season.

Last year showed you don't need the giants as much as everyone says you do, provided you have the right attitude which is exactly what we had. Our pack was one of the best in the comp. We took down the best in the comp.

Put a big forward in the side now and we're still going to be having the same problems.

Hence why we spent most of the season desperately defending our own try line. Yes they did well last year, but maybe, it isn't the best long term strategy to CONSTANTLY cede the majority of field position to virtually every other team we play?

You'll also undoubtedly remember that such a strategy ultimately was unsuccessful...

 

[Super Freak]

Hence why we spent most of the season desperately defending our own try line. Yes they did well last year, but maybe, it isn't the best long term strategy to CONSTANTLY cede the majority of field position to virtually every other team we play?

You'll also undoubtedly remember that such a strategy ultimately was unsuccessful...

I remember it just fine.

The strategy was working until Oates fucked up and came off his wing.

And despite the sit and wait defence last year forcing us to defend our own try line, it worked. It got us to the Grand Final and it would have won us the Grand Final had Oates just stayed on his wing.

It worked because we had the right attitude.

I don't see any reason why it can't continue working.

It was working this year until our attitude changed.

Anyway, my point was, we don't need these big giant forwards as much as people say we do. It all comes down to attitude.

 

[Jason Simmons]

It's the old cliche. "If you're not going forward..."

In fairness, the Broncos recognised that last year. That's why they brought in the likes of Gavet, Ese'ese, Garbutt and Pangai Jr. None of them have set the world on fire (yet), and some won't ever do it for the Broncos, but it's something the club has been working on.

The issue is with the likes of Ofahengaue, Ese'ese, Pangai Jr, Fai etc. it takes time. I don't think there's a prop that went straight from the Holden Cup and dominated from the first season. I know a few who played Test footy, but they were picked as prospects and nothing more.

The point I'm getting at is the club will sign a forward or two to bolster the pack. I have little doubt about that. However, anyone expecting to sign a Jesse Bromwich, David Klemmer etc is only setting themselves up for disappointment. The Broncos don't need them in order to be successful.

If anything, they desperately need some backs. The way the game is played these days, if you don't have a back with a good carry in him, you're going to lose a few sets of six. Right now, the Broncos only have one player who has consistently made good metres. It isn't enough and it's having a big say in games.

They may have recognised it, but if so, then their pack isn't the only thing that needs work, their recruitment obviously does too, as 3 of the 5 recruited forwards (including Kennedy) that we have intended to fill that hole have been punted for being less than useful in their envisaged roles within a season, two at most.

As to not needing a big bopper to be successful, I disagree. When have we ever won a premiership without at least one or preferrably two or more? We haven't period. Now premiership success isn't the 'only' measure of success but it is by far the most reliable and visible and the fact is there hasn't been a team that has won the premiership with a pack built on backrowers in the decade since we won ours, built by the by, via an engine room of Shane Webcke, Petero Civoniceva, with Ben Hannant off the bench and prop sized second rowers in Brad Thorn and Sam Thaiday...

Just the relevant stats for our starting packs from our last premiership to now for some perspective...

2006:

Webcke - 183cms, 111kgs.

Civo - 193cms, 116kgs.

Berro - 178cms, 87kgs.

Thorne - 196cms, 119kgs.

Sammi - 181cms, 111kgs.

Tunza - 186cms, 103kgs.

Pack weight - 647kgs.




2016:

Blair - 188cms, 108kgs.

McGuire - 180cms, 106kgs.

McCullough - 186cms, 91kgs.

Glenn - 181cms, 100kgs.

Gillett - 187cms, 101kgs.

Cozza - 188cms, 102kgs.

Pack weight - 608kgs.

 

[Jason Simmons]

I remember it just fine.

The strategy was working until Oates ****ed up and came off his wing.

And despite the sit and wait defence last year forcing us to defend our own try line, it worked. It got us to the Grand Final and it would have won us the Grand Final had Oates just stayed on his wing.

It worked because we had the right attitude.

I don't see any reason why it can't continue working.

It was working this year until our attitude changed.

Anyway, my point was, we don't need these big giant forwards as much as people say we do. It all comes down to attitude.

Plenty of tactics work as a one off. The 'second year syndrome' Gus Gould etc drone on about is nothing more than the professionalism of the NRL working out ways to counter what worked in one particular season.

Our 'hold the line' style has been countered, we haven't worked out a better way to defend and the results of our small pack being found out once it's sole tactic has been countered are plain to see.

 

[holdzy]

Surely Locky can teach Hunt and/or Milf how to kick for position on the last instead of useless bombs 4/5 times. Hunt needs to get a bit deeper on the last because he is always jammed up...would help also if the team chased the bomb like they actually want the ball.

I feel that early in these games, the forwards are doing alright. They don't get dominated until after twenty or so when the attack isn't producing results and mistakes force repeated sets of defence. That said, the forwards need to mix it up, more offloads, less Parker doing a Gallen on the fourth.

If we can pin them down their end for repeates sets, instead of always letting them back close to our 10-20, we can usually score. I don't know, like everyone is saying it is attitude. I have a feeling about tonight, I'm confident. I think a few young guys will step up and hopefully put pressure on a few that think their spots are a sure thing for as long as they like.

Hunt and Milf need to sort their shit out and inspire their team mates like they did last year.

 

[Rico]

The Broncos season...

Who could forget the great Rick Disnic...top post super freak

 

[Rico]

How do you know what Lockyer is or isn't doing for the team? Does he need a specific title, like "Backs Coach" or "Halves Specialist Consultant" to be helpful around the club? There is no quick fix here. A simple call out to Walters or Lockyer wont change how they are playing. They have the best coaches and staff available at their disposal. Only the players can change what they are doing. The processes haven't changed, it's the application to the process and attitude that has. If they decide to turn up, this competition is wide open, and we are as good a chance as any other team to come home strong for the last section of the season.

Fair post mate and for the best part I agree with you. He needs no title other than Sir Darren... We can turn it around and will tonight.

I just don't want the great man going down a similar path to Peter Stirling (I'm absolutely not saying he is) where you collect your half a bar at channel 9, don't help your former club when they are down and kick the crap out of them in the media. Joey is another that from afar could do with helping his old club more than consulting to other clubs then get a gig at 9. Let me be clear, Locky hasn't done this and he is a cut above Stirling & Johns as a bloke so I'm sure I've got nothing to worry about...reckon I'm just getting frustrated like everyone else that a season we started favourites in is falling away for several reasons.

Us by 14 tonight!!

 

[jarro65]

Fair post mate and for the best part I agree with you. He needs no title other than Sir Darren... We can turn it around and will tonight.

I just don't want the great man going down a similar path to Peter Stirling (I'm absolutely not saying he is) where you collect your half a bar at channel 9, don't help your former club when they are down and kick the crap out of them in the media. Joey is another that from afar could do with helping his old club more than consulting to other clubs then get a gig at 9. Let me be clear, Locky hasn't done this and he is a cut above Stirling & Johns as a bloke so I'm sure I've got nothing to worry about...reckon I'm just getting frustrated like everyone else that a season we started favourites in is falling away for several reasons.

Us by 14 tonight!!

I'm pretty certain Sterlo has offered his services to the Eels if they wanted him .... not fulltime though, but he has stated he'd be more than happy to head down to training a couple of times a week to lend a hand.

 

[Waynesaurus]

Enough talk............... I want actions and not words, its time for the players to step up, put in and just get the job done.

 

[Porthoz]

They may have recognised it, but if so, then their pack isn't the only thing that needs work, their recruitment obviously does too, as 3 of the 5 recruited forwards (including Kennedy) that we have intended to fill that hole have been punted for being less than useful in their envisaged roles within a season, two at most.

As to not needing a big bopper to be successful, I disagree. When have we ever won a premiership without at least one or preferrably two or more? We haven't period. Now premiership success isn't the 'only' measure of success but it is by far the most reliable and visible and the fact is there hasn't been a team that has won the premiership with a pack built on backrowers in the decade since we won ours, built by the by, via an engine room of Shane Webcke, Petero Civoniceva, with Ben Hannant off the bench and prop sized second rowers in Brad Thorn and Sam Thaiday...

Just the relevant stats for our starting packs from our last premiership to now for some perspective...

2006:

Webcke - 183cms, 111kgs.

Civo - 193cms, 116kgs.

Berro - 178cms, 87kgs.

Thorne - 196cms, 119kgs.

Sammi - 181cms, 111kgs.

Tunza - 186cms, 103kgs.

Pack weight - 647kgs.




2016:

Blair - 188cms, 108kgs.

McGuire - 180cms, 106kgs.

McCullough - 186cms, 91kgs.

Glenn - 181cms, 100kgs.

Gillett - 187cms, 101kgs.

Cozza - 188cms, 102kgs.

Pack weight - 608kgs.

Jarrod Wallace - 189 cm - 108 Kgs

Jo Ofahengaue - 187 cm - 107 Kgs

Herman Ese'ese - 186 cm - 110 Kgs

Tevita Pangai Jnr - 190 cm - 113 Kgs

Those are pretty reasonable sizes for a prop, in the mould of a James Graham for example, and bigger than a Matt Scott or peptide Paul.
Above that size, there are only a handful of players in the NRL: James Tamou, Kenny Bromwich, David Klemmer, Andrew Fifita & Ben Matulino come to mind. (not counting on the 10 minutes a game from Sam Kasiano here)...

The younger players still coming through are no that small either, and probably still have some growing to do weight wise:
Jai Arrow - 189 cm - 95 Kgs

Jaydn Su'a - 187 cm - 98 Kgs

 

[Big Pete]

They may have recognised it, but if so, then their pack isn't the only thing that needs work, their recruitment obviously does too, as 3 of the 5 recruited forwards (including Kennedy) that we have intended to fill that hole have been punted for being less than useful in their envisaged roles within a season, two at most.

Kennedy wasn't recruited by either Nolan or Bennett, so scratch him.

In fact, even Garbutt is iffy. He was brought in under Nolan's watch, but Bennett didn't have much of a say.

So that makes it what? 2/3? With Gavet suffering an ACL tear during the early stages of that season, it's difficult to find fault there. Maybe Bennett should have consulted a psychic?

As to not needing a big bopper to be successful, I disagree.

I agree, which is why I didn't say that.

As for the weights you posted, those weren't the playing weights in 2006. One of the key reasons behind the Broncos success that year is because a lot of players LOST weight.

Wikipedia is a useful tool, but it isn't the end all to be end all.

 

[Rally Towel]

It's certainly a winnable game but we should have been red hot favorites at this time of year.

The Storm game was our chance to play ourselves into form. Show we could put some poor form behind us and go toe to toe with a top tier side.

Instead we were beaten from pillar to post. Injuries aside, we completely failed to inject ourselves into the game.

We put in the effort against Souths but we still aren't playing with the intensity and unity that defined last year's campaign.

Hard to see us regaining the form necessary to challenge this year.