Alternative Idea to the Cap
- Thread starter Dexter
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Then you have to take into account how far back do you count representative honours? Prince played a solitary test in 2005, and hasn't played rep since. Lillyman has played State of Origin the past 2 years.
All sorts of things would have to come into consideration. Number of games suspended and injured too. We'd need to ask Mr McIntyre to come up with a system for points classifications. His finals system is bad enough! :P
All sorts of things would have to come into consideration. Number of games suspended and injured too. We'd need to ask Mr McIntyre to come up with a system for points classifications. His finals system is bad enough! :P
- Mar 26, 2008
- 7,935
- 6,868
- Thread starter
- #24
Yes that is the hard part, and who would assess it, and how do you take all the variables and come up with a number.
Fantasy leagues are using systems now that express a players value as a number out of 10 using increments of .1
Not suggesting we should us Fox fantsay league as a model for a minute just saying that its being done, although I have no clue as to how they arrive at each players number.
I will say that I don't disagree with too many of the rankings at all.
Fantasy leagues are using systems now that express a players value as a number out of 10 using increments of .1
Not suggesting we should us Fox fantsay league as a model for a minute just saying that its being done, although I have no clue as to how they arrive at each players number.
I will say that I don't disagree with too many of the rankings at all.
Yeah, problem is as we all know, stats alone are not sufficient to judge a player by. There's intangibles marquee players bring to clubs and that needs to be measured somehow.
It's almost like you need to do a survey of players, administrators and fans to get a "feeling" rating!
It's almost like you need to do a survey of players, administrators and fans to get a "feeling" rating!
BroncoMatt
QCup Player
- Mar 4, 2008
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- 0
The NBL uses a points Cap in conjuction with a Salary Cap.
Now the Salray Cap is a joke, but the points system works OK. I realise Basketball is much more Stats based sport,and it easier to assign a points value to a player, but the following might give an insight into how a points sytem would operate
For what its worth, I dont think it would work in the NRl, but its food for thought all the same.
http://nbl.com.au/default.aspx?s=salary-cap
SALARY CAP / POINTS CAP
NBL Points System explained
Prior to the 2003-04 season, the NBL instituted a groundbreaking new Points System aimed at providing a level playing field for all teams by ensuring a more even distribution of talent and experience around the league. Prior to the 2008/09 season, a number of reforms were made to the system to ensure that it continued to operate effectively.
Teams must conform to both the NBL Points System and NBL Salary Cap (which has been set at A$810,000 for season 2007/08) each season for all player transactions.
A basic explanation of the NBL Points System and the NBL Salary Cap for fans is detailed below.
Click here to see the current points ratings of all NBL players.
NBL POINTS SYSTEM
The 2008/09 NBL Player Points Ranking and Total Team Points Systems
Introduction
The Player Points Ranking and Total Team Points Systems have been put in place by the NBL Board as a strategy to ensure that all clubs have equitable access to the player talent in order to maximise the quality of the competition. It is important that the NBL remain a viable competition that is appealing to both sponsors and fans.
1. Total Team Points (TTP)
a) Each NBL player will be allocated a Player Points Ranking (PPR) between 1 and 10 prior to each season based on their performance in the NBL or based on the league they have participated in for the season just concluded. ( refer to paragraph 7 for explanation) This ranking will be updated each year. For the purposes of NBL player contracting, a player will retain his PPR as at the commencement of the contract and for the duration of that contract. Subsequent NBL playing contracts (subject to the conditions of paragraph 8) between the same player and the same club will use the allocated PPR at the commencement season of the new contract.
b) All initial PPR’s will be reviewed by The Points Appeal Panel prior to the rankings being released to the players. This panel will be made up of representatives of the following:
1. NBLPA
2. NBL Board
3. NBL Management
4. An Independent Chairman with basketball background and no club affiliation.
Furthermore; the Points Appeal Panel will hear any subsequent appeals described in Point 9 below
c) Players who dispute the PPR assigned to them have the opportunity to have such ranking reviewed by the NBL Points Appeals Panel subject to the conditions of Paragraph 9. Appeals need to be lodged within 21 working days of the initial rankings being released officially by the NBL, and need to follow the format as prescribed in the NBL Rules, 5.9 (h). Appeals lodged late with the NBL will not be considered.
d) Each NBL club will be allocated a maximum number of player ranking points that their team can accrue. The total number of points for each team shall be known as the Total Team Points. (TTP) The NBL Board has the capacity to vary the TTP for any given season.
e) For the 2008-09 NBL Season, the NBL Board and NBLPA have determined the TTP will be 68 points per club. Note: Internal Rankings are used in determining the 68 points, see Item 3 (b) below.
f) The TTP calculation for each Club is to include all players on the club’s active roster, up to and including players 11 & 12 if contracted. Registered NBL Development players are exempt from the calculation of the TTP.
2. The Player Points Ranking (PPR)
The NBL Board, in conjunction with the NBL clubs and NBLPA, have established the following principles to form the basis of the current Player Points Ranking process:
1. All players contracted in an NBL season will be included in the PPR for the NBL season immediately following.
2. Players having played in the NBL previously and not currently ranked, and not covered by any category in this document will be ranked by the Points Appeal Panel.
3. The NBL Board has agreed for the 2008/09 season that the current statistical based ranking system will be applied. The NBL may however, determine a different procedure for determining PPR in consultation with the coaches, club general managers and the NBLPA for future seasons.
4. For the purposes of player replacement on injury waiver, the club may replace them with any player provided the TTP is not exceeded.
3. External and Internal Player Points Rankings
a) The PPR that a player receives under the NBL Player Points ranking system is known as their External Ranking. The player’s External Ranking will be used in the calculation of the TTP except in cases subject to the conditions of Paragraph 3(b)
b) Players may receive reductions in their ranking for long-term continuous loyalty to one NBL team. (Paragraph 4) These reductions are subtracted from the External Ranking to produce an Internal Ranking. The Internal Ranking in these cases will be used in the calculation of the TTP.
4. PPR Loyalty Variations
Notwithstanding the procedures set out in The Player Ranking and Team Points System outlined above, variations to players External Rating may result from continuous loyalty to one NBL club.
a) Any player with a PPR over 5 who has been contracted as an active member of the roster of the same NBL Club for a minimum of five consecutive seasons shall have his Internal PPR reduced by 1 point provided he continues to represent that NBL Club.
b) Any player with a PPR over 5 who has been contracted as an active member of the roster of the same NBL Club for a minimum of ten consecutive seasons shall have his Internal PPR reduced by 3 points provided he continues to represent that NBL Club.
c) Any player who commences their professional career as a non restricted player with an NBL club and remains contracted as an active club player beyond his initial contract with the same club will be entitled to a 2 point reduction on their External PPR as long as they remain contracted to that club.
Non restricted players who commence their professional careers playing the domestic leagues in NZ and Australia are still eligible for this discount.
This reduction is in addition to any other loyalty reductions that the player may be entitled to subject to Paragraph 4(a), (b), and (c). Therefore a rookie Player remaining with the same club for 5 and 10 years will receive deductions of 3 and 5 points respectively.
No player may fall below a one point rating as a result of these reductions.
These reductions are NOT transferable to another club.
5. Restricted Players
All first year restricted players (as defined in the NBL Rules) shall be assigned a PPR of 10 for the duration of their initial NBL Contract. For subsequent contracts these players’ PPR will be determined using the PPR principles applied to all other contracted NBL players as outlined in this document.
6. Rookies
All Rookies, except for those in the classifications listed below and in Paragraph 7, have a PPR of 1 point for the purposes of their first NBL player’s contract. As outlined in Paragraph 8, this PPR will remain current for the life of their first contract. (Option clauses excluded) Subsequent NBL playing contracts will thereafter use the NBL PPR calculation noting the conditions of paragraph 4 (c) as outlined.
The following rookies will be assigned a PPR of 3 points for the purposes of their first NBL players’ contract:
a) A player on scholarship with the Australian Institute of Sport for two years (seasons)*.
b) An Australian commencing with any NBL Club after a minimum of two years (seasons)* in the US College system.
*If the player returns for a second season this will be deemed to constitute two seasons, even if the player does not complete the second season.
7. Overseas Players (non-restricted)
Non-restricted players returning from or having played overseas will be allocated a PPR according to the following:
NBA / CBA – 10 points
NBDL, European Leagues – 9 points
Other International Leagues – 8 points
This rating may be appealed based on the perceived playing strength of the league and will be assessed on a case by case basis.
The ranking from the highest level of competition the player has played will be taken. Therefore if a player played in the NBA, then went to Europe, then signed with an NBL club, he would be ranked as a 10 “having played in the NBAâ€Â.
8. Length of Ranking
A player’s External PPR may change during the life of the contract and clubs are NOT permitted to terminate contracts and resign players to take advantage of these fluctuations.
Consequently if a player is signed to a multiyear agreement his PPR from the first year of the NBL playing contract regardless of an upward or downward movement in the PPR shall remain for the remainder of his contract and clubs will use his original PPR in the calculation of the TTP.
Option years are regarded as an extension of the current contract and if exercised by the club or the player it will be done so on the existing conditions of the contract, including points ranking. Any variations to these conditions will be deemed to be a new contract and as such will have to be lodged accordingly with the current PPR being used.
9. Points Appeals Panel
Players are allowed to appeal their initial point ranking if they disagree with their PPR. Appeals need to be lodged within 21 working days of the initial rankings being released officially by the NBL, and need to follow the format as prescribed in the NBL Rules, 5.9 (h). Appeals lodged late with the NBL will not be considered.
A player unemployed at the commencement of a season:
a) who has made himself available to all clubs and
b) Has had all clubs advise the NBL that they have declined to contract that player
may apply to the Points Appeals Panel for a review of his PPR to pursue a contract with an NBL club. If successful on appeal the new allocated PPR is valid for one season only and for any subsequent years will be calculated using the relevant PPR principles as outlined by the NBL.
If any NBL club is willing to offer a contract to the player at his existing PPR then the player must accept that offer or sit out the NBL season. If more than one club is willing to contract then the team with lowest accumulated TTP will be allocated the player.
10. Miscellaneous
Should an NBL Club default their license, have their license revoked by the NBL and or go into liquidation and not be able to compete in the NBL, those players who have registered multiyear contracts with the clubs no longer able to play in the NBL will be able to “transfer†their point rankings and maintain their continuity of loyalty to a new club for the duration of their existing contract, provided they sign with a new club prior to the commencement of the following NBL season.
Once that contract has reached its initial termination date, then the player will be ranked as per normal, and his new loyalty period will commence with the new club at the date when he signed with the new club.
NBL SALARY CAP
The NBL Salary Cap, like the NBL Points System, is a device used to ensure parity within the league while allowing teams from different sized markets to compete evenly for playing talent.
The Salary Cap for the 2007/08 NBL season has been set at A$810,000, meaning the combined value of player under contract at each club cannot exceed this amount. The A$810,000 includes all player payments, for example superannuation, car allowance, and accommodation.
Players may earn additional income from sources not linked to the club they are contracted to (eg. outside employment) provided all details have been lodged with, and approved by, the NBL.
Now the Salray Cap is a joke, but the points system works OK. I realise Basketball is much more Stats based sport,and it easier to assign a points value to a player, but the following might give an insight into how a points sytem would operate
For what its worth, I dont think it would work in the NRl, but its food for thought all the same.
http://nbl.com.au/default.aspx?s=salary-cap
SALARY CAP / POINTS CAP
NBL Points System explained
Prior to the 2003-04 season, the NBL instituted a groundbreaking new Points System aimed at providing a level playing field for all teams by ensuring a more even distribution of talent and experience around the league. Prior to the 2008/09 season, a number of reforms were made to the system to ensure that it continued to operate effectively.
Teams must conform to both the NBL Points System and NBL Salary Cap (which has been set at A$810,000 for season 2007/08) each season for all player transactions.
A basic explanation of the NBL Points System and the NBL Salary Cap for fans is detailed below.
Click here to see the current points ratings of all NBL players.
NBL POINTS SYSTEM
The 2008/09 NBL Player Points Ranking and Total Team Points Systems
Introduction
The Player Points Ranking and Total Team Points Systems have been put in place by the NBL Board as a strategy to ensure that all clubs have equitable access to the player talent in order to maximise the quality of the competition. It is important that the NBL remain a viable competition that is appealing to both sponsors and fans.
1. Total Team Points (TTP)
a) Each NBL player will be allocated a Player Points Ranking (PPR) between 1 and 10 prior to each season based on their performance in the NBL or based on the league they have participated in for the season just concluded. ( refer to paragraph 7 for explanation) This ranking will be updated each year. For the purposes of NBL player contracting, a player will retain his PPR as at the commencement of the contract and for the duration of that contract. Subsequent NBL playing contracts (subject to the conditions of paragraph 8) between the same player and the same club will use the allocated PPR at the commencement season of the new contract.
b) All initial PPR’s will be reviewed by The Points Appeal Panel prior to the rankings being released to the players. This panel will be made up of representatives of the following:
1. NBLPA
2. NBL Board
3. NBL Management
4. An Independent Chairman with basketball background and no club affiliation.
Furthermore; the Points Appeal Panel will hear any subsequent appeals described in Point 9 below
c) Players who dispute the PPR assigned to them have the opportunity to have such ranking reviewed by the NBL Points Appeals Panel subject to the conditions of Paragraph 9. Appeals need to be lodged within 21 working days of the initial rankings being released officially by the NBL, and need to follow the format as prescribed in the NBL Rules, 5.9 (h). Appeals lodged late with the NBL will not be considered.
d) Each NBL club will be allocated a maximum number of player ranking points that their team can accrue. The total number of points for each team shall be known as the Total Team Points. (TTP) The NBL Board has the capacity to vary the TTP for any given season.
e) For the 2008-09 NBL Season, the NBL Board and NBLPA have determined the TTP will be 68 points per club. Note: Internal Rankings are used in determining the 68 points, see Item 3 (b) below.
f) The TTP calculation for each Club is to include all players on the club’s active roster, up to and including players 11 & 12 if contracted. Registered NBL Development players are exempt from the calculation of the TTP.
2. The Player Points Ranking (PPR)
The NBL Board, in conjunction with the NBL clubs and NBLPA, have established the following principles to form the basis of the current Player Points Ranking process:
1. All players contracted in an NBL season will be included in the PPR for the NBL season immediately following.
2. Players having played in the NBL previously and not currently ranked, and not covered by any category in this document will be ranked by the Points Appeal Panel.
3. The NBL Board has agreed for the 2008/09 season that the current statistical based ranking system will be applied. The NBL may however, determine a different procedure for determining PPR in consultation with the coaches, club general managers and the NBLPA for future seasons.
4. For the purposes of player replacement on injury waiver, the club may replace them with any player provided the TTP is not exceeded.
3. External and Internal Player Points Rankings
a) The PPR that a player receives under the NBL Player Points ranking system is known as their External Ranking. The player’s External Ranking will be used in the calculation of the TTP except in cases subject to the conditions of Paragraph 3(b)
b) Players may receive reductions in their ranking for long-term continuous loyalty to one NBL team. (Paragraph 4) These reductions are subtracted from the External Ranking to produce an Internal Ranking. The Internal Ranking in these cases will be used in the calculation of the TTP.
4. PPR Loyalty Variations
Notwithstanding the procedures set out in The Player Ranking and Team Points System outlined above, variations to players External Rating may result from continuous loyalty to one NBL club.
a) Any player with a PPR over 5 who has been contracted as an active member of the roster of the same NBL Club for a minimum of five consecutive seasons shall have his Internal PPR reduced by 1 point provided he continues to represent that NBL Club.
b) Any player with a PPR over 5 who has been contracted as an active member of the roster of the same NBL Club for a minimum of ten consecutive seasons shall have his Internal PPR reduced by 3 points provided he continues to represent that NBL Club.
c) Any player who commences their professional career as a non restricted player with an NBL club and remains contracted as an active club player beyond his initial contract with the same club will be entitled to a 2 point reduction on their External PPR as long as they remain contracted to that club.
Non restricted players who commence their professional careers playing the domestic leagues in NZ and Australia are still eligible for this discount.
This reduction is in addition to any other loyalty reductions that the player may be entitled to subject to Paragraph 4(a), (b), and (c). Therefore a rookie Player remaining with the same club for 5 and 10 years will receive deductions of 3 and 5 points respectively.
No player may fall below a one point rating as a result of these reductions.
These reductions are NOT transferable to another club.
5. Restricted Players
All first year restricted players (as defined in the NBL Rules) shall be assigned a PPR of 10 for the duration of their initial NBL Contract. For subsequent contracts these players’ PPR will be determined using the PPR principles applied to all other contracted NBL players as outlined in this document.
6. Rookies
All Rookies, except for those in the classifications listed below and in Paragraph 7, have a PPR of 1 point for the purposes of their first NBL player’s contract. As outlined in Paragraph 8, this PPR will remain current for the life of their first contract. (Option clauses excluded) Subsequent NBL playing contracts will thereafter use the NBL PPR calculation noting the conditions of paragraph 4 (c) as outlined.
The following rookies will be assigned a PPR of 3 points for the purposes of their first NBL players’ contract:
a) A player on scholarship with the Australian Institute of Sport for two years (seasons)*.
b) An Australian commencing with any NBL Club after a minimum of two years (seasons)* in the US College system.
*If the player returns for a second season this will be deemed to constitute two seasons, even if the player does not complete the second season.
7. Overseas Players (non-restricted)
Non-restricted players returning from or having played overseas will be allocated a PPR according to the following:
NBA / CBA – 10 points
NBDL, European Leagues – 9 points
Other International Leagues – 8 points
This rating may be appealed based on the perceived playing strength of the league and will be assessed on a case by case basis.
The ranking from the highest level of competition the player has played will be taken. Therefore if a player played in the NBA, then went to Europe, then signed with an NBL club, he would be ranked as a 10 “having played in the NBAâ€Â.
8. Length of Ranking
A player’s External PPR may change during the life of the contract and clubs are NOT permitted to terminate contracts and resign players to take advantage of these fluctuations.
Consequently if a player is signed to a multiyear agreement his PPR from the first year of the NBL playing contract regardless of an upward or downward movement in the PPR shall remain for the remainder of his contract and clubs will use his original PPR in the calculation of the TTP.
Option years are regarded as an extension of the current contract and if exercised by the club or the player it will be done so on the existing conditions of the contract, including points ranking. Any variations to these conditions will be deemed to be a new contract and as such will have to be lodged accordingly with the current PPR being used.
9. Points Appeals Panel
Players are allowed to appeal their initial point ranking if they disagree with their PPR. Appeals need to be lodged within 21 working days of the initial rankings being released officially by the NBL, and need to follow the format as prescribed in the NBL Rules, 5.9 (h). Appeals lodged late with the NBL will not be considered.
A player unemployed at the commencement of a season:
a) who has made himself available to all clubs and
b) Has had all clubs advise the NBL that they have declined to contract that player
may apply to the Points Appeals Panel for a review of his PPR to pursue a contract with an NBL club. If successful on appeal the new allocated PPR is valid for one season only and for any subsequent years will be calculated using the relevant PPR principles as outlined by the NBL.
If any NBL club is willing to offer a contract to the player at his existing PPR then the player must accept that offer or sit out the NBL season. If more than one club is willing to contract then the team with lowest accumulated TTP will be allocated the player.
10. Miscellaneous
Should an NBL Club default their license, have their license revoked by the NBL and or go into liquidation and not be able to compete in the NBL, those players who have registered multiyear contracts with the clubs no longer able to play in the NBL will be able to “transfer†their point rankings and maintain their continuity of loyalty to a new club for the duration of their existing contract, provided they sign with a new club prior to the commencement of the following NBL season.
Once that contract has reached its initial termination date, then the player will be ranked as per normal, and his new loyalty period will commence with the new club at the date when he signed with the new club.
NBL SALARY CAP
The NBL Salary Cap, like the NBL Points System, is a device used to ensure parity within the league while allowing teams from different sized markets to compete evenly for playing talent.
The Salary Cap for the 2007/08 NBL season has been set at A$810,000, meaning the combined value of player under contract at each club cannot exceed this amount. The A$810,000 includes all player payments, for example superannuation, car allowance, and accommodation.
Players may earn additional income from sources not linked to the club they are contracted to (eg. outside employment) provided all details have been lodged with, and approved by, the NBL.
- Mar 26, 2008
- 7,935
- 6,868
- Thread starter
- #27
Coxy said:
Not sure how say Fox do their rankings but Locky is thr highest ranked player and his stats are rubbish nearly every week. Laffranchi is only ranked a 6.8 yet his stats are nearly the best every week, so they must be using something as well as stats.
Anyway I agree it would be pretty hard to come up with a number, just an idea born out of frustration of losing some players purely because of money and the club virtually has its hands tied.
Also, don't the NRL already 'rate' players in terms of the salary cap. I am pretty sure I have read somewhere that they can give a player a value under the cap - even if you don't actually pay the player that much, he still gets counted under the cap for that much. I think they started doing it to stop clubs paying players a 'minimal amount' but then actually paying their partner an amount of money for some kind of made up job they supposedly do for the club; thereby ultimately paying the player say $200,000 whilst technically only paying him $100,000.
Professor47
NRL Player
- Mar 5, 2008
- 1,632
- 81
It's a real iffy issue that seems to be growing doesn't it?
I think the cap was more effective before when players were actually getting paid what they were "really" worth, the market value of players has just inflated ridiculously in comparison to the cap limit. I've been saying this for the last couple of years.
In my opinion, with a 4m salary cap (back then it was 3.25 of course) only the TOP TIER players should get paid anything above 400k and MAX 500k ish, Im talking Lockyer, Joey and Fittler over the last few years and thats it. all the so called 400l players now are worth 300k in relation to the cap limit and so forth.
so for eg. Word on the street is that Quinn signed recently for about $240k a year, I believe he is worth $150k ish a year in RELATION to the cap limit. I hope this makes sense!
The argument is, it is unfair on players, and that I understand, but i think all salaries should be based relative to the cap limit.
A good argument for the other side is, the player is worth what clubs are willing to pay for them, and I got nothing much to say back to that.
So in a way, I guess what I am saying MAY be what stupid Dennis is saying! I suppose I do beleive the market value of players are overpriced!!! but i STRESS!!! in accordance to the CAP LIMIT!!!
and we all know why we cant riase the cap to some ridiculus amount, because that is not the answer.
I think the cap was more effective before when players were actually getting paid what they were "really" worth, the market value of players has just inflated ridiculously in comparison to the cap limit. I've been saying this for the last couple of years.
In my opinion, with a 4m salary cap (back then it was 3.25 of course) only the TOP TIER players should get paid anything above 400k and MAX 500k ish, Im talking Lockyer, Joey and Fittler over the last few years and thats it. all the so called 400l players now are worth 300k in relation to the cap limit and so forth.
so for eg. Word on the street is that Quinn signed recently for about $240k a year, I believe he is worth $150k ish a year in RELATION to the cap limit. I hope this makes sense!
The argument is, it is unfair on players, and that I understand, but i think all salaries should be based relative to the cap limit.
A good argument for the other side is, the player is worth what clubs are willing to pay for them, and I got nothing much to say back to that.
So in a way, I guess what I am saying MAY be what stupid Dennis is saying! I suppose I do beleive the market value of players are overpriced!!! but i STRESS!!! in accordance to the CAP LIMIT!!!
and we all know why we cant riase the cap to some ridiculus amount, because that is not the answer.
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